Now this is an interesting post. I'm awaiting "All hell to break loose" (pardon the pun :oP) about this one.

If I read this right, you're thinking that maybe, although the flames of hell are eternal, the souls that go there are not? I'd never really thought about it before, but, now that you've mentioned it, I'm wondering are human souls/spirits eternal? I wouldn't exactly say "eternal life", but I'd be wondering about "eternal existence" As has been stated before, it's not about 'good/bad', but rather, "alive/dead". I don't know that we have enough information scripturally to have a concrete illustration of what a dead spirit looks/behaves like? Logically, it would seem that a dead spirit negates itself and simply does not exist, but then again, I'm trying to understand a spiritual matter with a limited human understanding. I have visions of Casper the Ghost dying. But he can't die--he's already dead :o| See?

It's been said before--anywhere without the Love of God is hell--no matter the temperature. It could be burning hot or freezing cold. The simple truth of God's absense would make it hell.

Either way, I'm thankful that my destination lies elsewhere ;)

Interesting thoughts, Trent. Thanks for sharing.

To decide with absolute certainty whether or not the human soul is eternal by default (apart from Spiritual infusion through second birth) the answer can be determined by the following question:

Does the human soul have a beginning? (is it created or not?)

Eternity has no beginning, so a soul that is "created" is not Eternal. It has a beginning, and cannot continue once time is no longer.

"The soul that sins shall die." - God.

I put before you two choices: Life or death.
Choose Life!


Ripening,
Trent

Just to make your head hurt about this, let me put on my math major hat with the timeline trim...

As Alpha and Omega, Jesus is eternity past and eternity future or as a MathHead -infinity to + infinity or [-inf,+inf].

As a created being,
in our body we have a starting point and an ending point, say 75. MathHead [0,75]

A resurrection body like the Lord's,
will last [?,+inf], depending on when I receive that body.

Spiritually, when I am born again, eternal life (Christ's life)began the moment I received Christ, say at 12, and continues since I have Christ's eternal life. MathHead [12,+inf].

When I accept the Lord, how does this affect my human spirit? MathHead [0,?]

If I had rejected Christ and only have a human spirit, that spirit begins at birth, but where does it end? MathHead [0,?].

Soulishly, MathHead saved [A?,B?] or lost [A?,C?].

Now if your brain hasn't exploded like a scene from "Scanners", Christ's eternal life is beyond a timeline into a quality of life that is somehow blended into the new creature in Christ, but absent in the mind of a rejector of Christ.

Me... stop ... now ... brane ... no ..gud ...thinq. Luke, I am your father! ... Danger Will Robinson! ... Nip it in the bud! ... We’re not in Kansas anymore!...Beam me up Scotty! ... Truth, Justice and the American Way ... Daisy... Daisy ... give me your answer do ... Of all the gin joints in all the world, why’d she have to walk into mine?... Take your filthy hands off me you damned , dirty apes! ... Rossssebuuuuddd.

No grace-math required, Bud. In fact, it is indespesible to the context of the most quoted passage of scripture: John 3:16

Everyone in a church congregation has John 3:16 memorized, yet any pastor has no fear about preaching in front of that congregation that "no soul will ever perish, whether they have eternal life or not."

So what good is their memorization of scripture, when they can't conclude the obvious?

Ripening still,

Trent

There are so many things to comment on here that I'm not sure which one to pick. I think hell is a concept for which most Christians hold a very condensed view, flavored by Paganism that would surprise most Christians in its lack of scriptural support. I would encourage all to dig deeply into scripture and be enriched by an expanded and very scriptural view of all of the concepts contained in the theological word hell that has been imposed upon scripture.

I like to do word studies and a word study of the Hebrew word for soul, "Nephesh" is where I began to question whether my views of soul, spirit, and the condition of the damned were really of scriptural base.

In the OT, KJV, the Hebrew word, Nephesh is translated into English in the following ways. I will refrain from comment and be curious as to how you reconcile all of them.
any (3 times) dead body (4)
appetite (2) desire (4)
himself (8) beast (2)
fish (1) life (117)
breath (1) heart (15)
lust (2) heart (15)
man (3) creature(9)
hearty (1) dead (5)
herself (2) mind (15)
mortally (1) themselves (3)
myself (1) thyself (1)
person (29) will (4)
pleasure (3) would have it (1)
soul (475) yourselves (6)
thing (2)

Have Fun!

Pam

This is very interesting! What do you think about the passage in Gen 1:26 & 1:27, where it says that God created man and woman in His image and likeness? It can't refer to the physical form, since God is a spirit and has none. I think this passage is where most Christians get the idea that our spirits live forever, even without the benefit of Jesus' sacrifice. To me the passage suggests that human spirits are meant to live forever, however I share your discomfort with the idea that God wants those who reject Him to live forever in torment.

Amen and amen , Trent.

I'm with Pam on where to comment... All(comments above) excellent and sincere questions and statements of faith.

So I would like to comment on just the "immortal soul" question; Who is mortal and who isn't.

Question: Is it true that the soul is immortal and that only the body dies?

Answer: No. We are mortal until Jesus raises us from the grave at the Resurrection. Then we will be made immortal.

Job 4:17 ~ ‘Can a mortal(us) be just and upright before God?’

I Timothy 6:15-16 ~ For at the right time Christ will be revealed from heaven by the blessed and only almighty God, the King of kings and the Lord of lords. He ALONE can never die

But let me tell you a wonderful secret God has revealed to us. Not all of us will die, but we will all be transformed. It will happen in a moment, in the blinking of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, the Christians who have died will be raised with transformed bodies. And then we who are living will be transformed so that we will never die. For our perishable earthly bodies must be transformed into heavenly bodies that will never die. ~ I Corinthians 15:51-53 NIV

Hello to all my brothers and sisters in christ, hope all are doing well in these troubling times.I would like for everyone to know that it is of the upmost importance that we are very careful what we allow into our minds without first testing that it is directly from our LORD@ SAVIUOR JESUS CHRIST. This can be made known through yourself or through somone that HE has put into your life to help discern what is of the spirit or what is of the devil. Rememember it is appointed unto us to test all that we hear, feel, see, and taste. This is HIS law to us so use it wisely. There me be those of you that may know who i am and what my role is in this great time of our LORD. (I somtime wonder myself)lol. Anywho, there are those that don't have a clue (like myself)lol just kidding. Anywho my name is jay reinke and i'm from waco(wacko),texas. And let me tell you it is wacko. My part in this glory has unfolded right before my own eyes since my birth wheter i new it or not. But all the pieces to the puzzle i'm putting together now and it's making sense. If it were not for trent and all connected to this sight i wouldn't have a clue what it is that our destiny has in store for us. Things unfold second to second in my mind some harder to grasp than others but none the less please pray for me and our people so as that i and others can put everything into perspective in order to share with each other. Rememember faith and prayer are of the upmost importance right now so stay true to the spirit. GOD BLESS YOU all and i can't wait until the day i can hug each and everyone of you. Please contact me at biggentlej@yahoo.com to ask or share with me anything you may need including prayer or in guidance to accepting CHRIST. Also you can go to any search engine and look up jay reinke, biggentlej or any other key words you may feel pertinent.
GOD BLESS all
and peace be with you
your brother in CHRIST
jay reinke
biggentlej

p.s don't forget we are all GODS children.

All I can say is:
GOD SURE IS A MERCIFUL, GRACIOUS SAVIOUR, ... and a VERY RIGHTEOUS JUDGE !

Halleluyah !

CHRIST IS RISEN !

I commend everyone on being thoughtful and noble bereans. Many deep subjects have been addressed by all the comments.

Eternity refers to God alone. For eternity has no beginning and no end. As created beings we have everlasting life, not eternal. But for all who receive the grace given us by God through Jesus Christ, we receive eternal life since His life is joined to ours.

1 Cor 6:17 says that he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit. In our spirit, those who are born again, we have eternal life since the eternal God is joined to us.

However, to say there is eternal torment is a translators choice that is misleading. There is everlasting torment. But this torment is not limited to the soul, but the totality of the lost. For the Lake of Fire is reserved for after the White Throne Judgment, where everyone is bodily resurrected. The Jews in the Old Testament understood of the bodily resurrection. Job said,
Job 19:26-27
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
(KJV)

Job believed in the Messiah, or Redeemer (v.25), but it was understood that he would be resurrected bodily.

Likewise, Daniel made a similar statement.

Dan 12:2
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (KJV)

This understanding of the resurrection of the body was echoed by Martha to Jesus when her brother Lazarus died. She said,

John 11:24
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. (KJV)

She misunderstood that the man from Galilee standing before was the resurrection.

John 11:25
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

(KJV)

The everlasting torment of those who reject the cross, is bodily, as well as from the soul and the spirit.

Hello, Editor!

You said: "As created beings we have everlasting life, not eternal."
That reminds me of what I heard a snake once said: "you shall surly not die."

Everlasting life is found only in the Son. If every soul has everlasting life by default then why would Adam have any need for the Tree of Life? Why would anybody need what Jesus offers: "everlasting life."

I caution you against the boastful pride of life, thinking to one's self that they cannot perish, cannot be destroyed and have no threat of death. For a soul will surely die if it chooses to do so by rejection of the Lord Jesus. For it is written that "the soul that sins shall die." And only the enemy of our souls has come up with the polar opposite saying that "you shall surly not die."

"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some people think of slowness; on the contrary, he is patient with you; for it is not his purpose that anyone should be destroyed, but that everyone should turn from his sins. However, the Day of the Lord will come "like a thief." On that Day the heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will melt and disintegrate, and the earth and everything in it will be burned up. Since everything is going to be destroyed like this, what kind of people should you be? You should lead holy and godly lives, as you wait for the Day of God and work to hasten its coming. That Day will bring on the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt from the heat;" 2 Peter 3: 9 - 12


I cannot agree that one of the definitions for "destroyed"/"destruction"/"disintegrate"/"disappear" includes complete survival, but apparently you have come to that conclusion.

For even John 3:16 has said all that needs to be said. Whoever believes on Him does not "PERISH" but has everlasting life. Whoever does not, will perish and have no part in everlasting life.

Ripening for the harvest,
Trent

There are some excellent Biblical arguments to support a time limited judgment of the unrepentant but I'll only use this one. If Yeshua died in my place, and the penalty for my sin was unrelenting, unending, fiery torment, and he died for you, and your punishment called for unrelenting, unending, fiery torment, what's he doing out of the grave?

I'm afraid that I must disagree with the direction these posts are going. I'm sorry to say, in love, but in disagreement with Vicky that these arguments are neither excellent, biblical, original, nor clever new thinking, but rather a rehashing of the same old heresy of anihilationism, a close cousin of universalism, that has helped people for years who can't stomach the idea of the perfection of God's just judgment against sin.

Trent, your conclusion that God is "cruel" shows that you are right about one thing, this is a matter of perspective, and yours in the wrong one -- yours. From the perspective of eternity, the judgement of God will be so perfect that we will not shed a single tear. Though the lake of fire will be very conspicuous in the New Jerusalem, there will be absolute joy in Heaven.

Teaching Soteriology to young pastors and church planters in Tajikistan, I hit on this subject and tried to help some of the world's most inspiring believers understand it with the following teaching.

The measure of sin is measured by the character of the one whom sinned against.

1) Someone steps on a bug. Though he may feel bad about taking a life, no one calls him into account.

2) Someone kills a pet belonging to someone else. Now there is a great deal of angst and anger and tears over the pet. The difference? The value of the character that we attach to a pet over a bug.

3) Someone gets drunk and in a barfight, kills another person. Now you are talking crime and time in jail.

4) Someone kills the president. This person just went down in history as a notorious criminal, an assasin.

Each "crime" took a life, but each one gets progressively more serious based on the value attached to the life of the one whom sinned against.

Here's a math problem for budz: Calculate if you can the value of the character of Jesus Christ. What was His precious life worth? Vicky's insinuation that he didn't stay on the cross long enough to pay for our sins made me sick. I don't know Vicky, and I wish her nothing but blessing, but girl, think about what you are saying. Do you really think that one of us could accomplish on the cross the same thing in the same amount of time as a sinless Savior?

II Cor 5:21 He who knew no sin became sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

How long would it take you, how long would it take me on the cross which was hell for Jesus, where He bore the very wrath of God for our sins, to be able to say, "it is finished?"

How many days in hell would it take to make up for the offense that we have committed, the stains of our sin against the perfect holiness of God.

Trent, try to think of hell against the backdrop of perfect majesty, perfect holiness, perfect love. And remember, God never sent one person there. He is "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

The reason hell has to be forever has nothing to do with us. It's the character of the Holiness of God. He cannot, He will not allow sin to go unpunished. Someone has to pay the bills. If a person chooses to reject Jesus and pay his own bills, he's going to be paying a while.

And before you rail against other cherished doctrines of the bride and body of Christ given through the preaching of the apostles and the eye-witness testimony of the disciples, and the law and the prophets, the wisdom and poetry and redemption history of biblical theology, you might want to consider this:

"Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft."

I love you cousin. You have always been and still are someone I admire very much.

Chet,

You reinforced something that I believe: """He will not allow sin to go unpunished. """

Amen.
The soul who sins shall die (Ezekiel 18:4).
"I have set before you life and death , the blessing and the curse. So choose life" De 30:19
Below are two articles that reinforce this point (quoted above.) And I'll comment further after the articles.

Eighteen reasons why in a single verse?
http://gracehead.com/index.php/2007/10/28/eighteen_reasons_why_in_a_single_verse

Will acolytes of satan suffer for eternity?
http://gracehead.com/index.php/2008/03/07/suffer_for_eternity

Now, I understand that you KNOW that the lake of fire is an everlasting punishment. We agree about that. What we don't agree about is something that you have yet to address, brother. You must explain to me that those that "perish" (Jn 3:16) because they are on the wide road to "destruction" (Mt 7:13) actually have a soul that cannot be "destroyed in hell." (Mt 10:28) Am I to understand that you believe that the wicked each have eternal life just like the redeemed, but only a miserable instead of pleasurable one? After all, annihilation is an everlasting punishment although it is not unending torment.

Chet, you may not agree with my statements and logic in the post to which you commented and the two above ... but AT LEAST you will have to agree that they are well thought out and scripturally based. They use familiar passages and to my own best knowledge do not contradict a single word or statement in all of scripture. Not one (and I await your correction if you can show me otherwise.) ... However, it appears that the alternative viewpoint is the one that you prefer, so do me the honor of better understanding your viewpoint by showing me where in scripture that those that are separate from the life of God (Eph 2:12, Eph 4:18, ) actually have eternal life (1Jo 5:12) anyway, and will in no wise be destroyed nor perish (as the scriptures talk about.) Surely there must be some sound reason that you believe these things.

Unless some passage that you can find posits eternality to those subject to God's wrath (not just the mere eternality of God's wrath or means of punishment, but specifically those souls subjected to it) , which is the very basis of any view counter to mine, then I will have as much difficulty understanding the viewpoint, as I have respecting any viewpoint that would violate dozens of passages while using no passage for support.

You wrote: """ The reason hell has to be forever... """

Rev. 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

You say one thing and the Bible says another. Which should I believe?

You wrote: """And before you rail against other cherished doctrines of the bride and body of Christ given through the preaching of the apostles and the eye-witness testimony of the disciples, and the law and the prophets, the wisdom and poetry and redemption history of biblical theology, you might want to consider this // "Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft.""""

That reads like a blanket cheap-shot and a fallacy-of-logic, (namely the gratuitous lazy rebuttal of substantiated assertions.) Perhaps you did not mean it that way, but yes ... that is how it reads to me.

Is it right to say that I have railed against the truth of scripture (written by the prophets and apostles and inspired by the Holy Spirit for recall of first hand accounts,) while supplying myriad of references to it? Certainly even a heathen could not make that assertion. I have not built my understanding without using scripture to back it up. Yet what heathen or believer would not notice the lack of scripture in your rebuttal?

I'll make a nice big target for you, Chet ... so that you can show me if and when I assert something with cavalier disregard against the testimony of scripture. Here is what I am saying is a false doctrine perpetuated by the churches in lock-step with papal bull, of which oppose scripture:

ETERNAL TORMENT IN HELL. A false teaching that is subversive to every principle of justice and reason, and derogatory to the righteous character of God. This teaching is a sadistic nightmare, invented by paganism and Christendom alike, and today is still proclaimed by many churches. Where did this false theory of the immortal soul originate? The Bible gives us the answer in Genesis chapter 3:4 "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:" In contrast, I believe that utter destruction is the destiny awaiting the wicked.

Furthermore, I believe "soul morality / future resurrection" to be the prevalent thought of first century Christians, as well as notable theologians: Dr. Martin Luther, William Tyndale, and John Calvin ... (not that the opinions of man hold sway over the revelation of scripture.)

Are you saying that Luther, Tyndale and Calvin (along with myself) are all into the witchcraft of rebellion because our understanding of scripture differs from your orthodox theology? Unless you say otherwise, that is what I am to assume from what you said.

Ripening for the harvest,

Trent