Obedience flows naturally from a changed heart. Obedience forced upon another through manipulation, fear, and guilt is religion gone out of control. The first is accomplished by the power of God. The second is a religious leader boasting some authority trying to steal God's power for himself.

Pam

Except for in North Korea and certain cults, obedience is *rarely* forced upon people. ... but there *are* those who (rightly) warn about the consequences of disobedience, ... and especially *willful* disobedience and rebellion. - THAT certainly *does* have its rightful place in Biblical truth and authority.

The problem can (and does) arise when there is abuse of correction and/or authority in speaking of the matter of truthORconsequences. ... and obedienceORconsquences of DISobedience.

Obedience when encouraged is a blessing. The command to love our enemies (for example) is not for the thrill of our enemies, but for our own thrill. Same with every command ... we only cheat ourselves through disobedience, robbing ourselves of the abundant life by choosing sins that only vex our souls.

I suppose that Pam may be reacting to the problem that arises when one seeks to change what they are by what they do ... or under teaching that implies the same thing. "for neither life nor death ... can separate us from the love of God" - Paul. So, it is not that we would obey to become worthy of God's love and acceptance (the folly of legalism.) Rather we obey because we have been made acceptable by the imputation of Life from God's Only Son.

I contend that nobody is truly forced to obey (except like the extreme example that Len gives) ... however, it is fear and legalism (as defined above) within ones own heart that would compel them to do what they do not otherwise want to do. Nevertheless, such plight is the sad alternative to Christian living ... which is the abundant life of God's own empowerment to do exactly what one wants to do by the Spirit ... for we want to honor God and the Spirit teaches us walk uprightly.

Ripening,
Trent

That clarified the issue perfectly. thank, bro.

Trent,

When I obey it is because of what God has done in me through Christ. Left on my own, I would only obey perhaps occasionally by accident! Therefore, if I'm focused on Jesus and on what God can do then obedience comes naturally. Likewise, teaching and preaching that points toward Jesus and toward what God does and can do gives me the correct focus that produces natural obedience. Teaching and preaching that focuses upon what human beings should do and thier lack puts my focus in the wrong place and fills me with guilty duty and obedience turns into a chore.

However, I'm getting pretty old and I don't fall into listening to the second kind of preaching anymore. I look past it to Jesus.

I guess the issue for me is I am always saying "if I love God how could I (fill in the blank) "

That is always my mental nemesis and I grow tired of it. When someone else lets say for the this conversation points out my lack of (fill in the blank) I wish I could say it motivates me to change but instead it makes me run and hide even from God himself helping my nemesis confirm my folly as a Christian.

We are wise if before we speak we know who we speak to even more important with correction. We don't want to pull the wheat with the weeds.

I don't why I want to be always obedient yet I always fall short.

Sigh I might never know the answer while on earth.

Be loved you are

When I focus on Jesus and emphasize His active roll in all things then I am free to enjoy and appreciate obedience, ordinances, scripture, etc. Yet all of those things can be just as oppressive when It is me (alone) toiling in solitude to approach Him through those things. So then it is not "what" ... rather it is "why" and "how" that is the key to freedom from oppression.
Hence, there is NOTHING (and I mean NOTHING) wrong with teaching about obedience, itself. Nor is there any evil in teaching about baptism, or Bible translations, nor Eucharist, etc. Those are the "what" ... which is inert. The "what" is not the key to anything. "Why" and "how" can either liberate or corrupt anything ... no matter "what."
It is silly to cast aspersions on teaching or focusing on obedience, saying that only teaching about the personal Lord Jesus is valid. For the scriptures don't mention the Lord on every single verse. There is a time and a place for alot of different subjects, each of them valid, yet each of them potentially oppressive if the hearer fails to understand the "how" and the "why."
Yet even within failure and oppression, redemption comes closer ... for all things are rigged to fail when the "how" and "why" are corrupted. And there are lessons to be learned in failure that cannot be learned in success. All things work together for good. amen.

Ripening,
Trent

I guess what your post caused me to focus in on is the kind of preaching that is edifying to me in my personal walk and that which I have to look past. Of course, obedience is important but when someone in authority twists obedience to God as a means to building his 'ministry' then I feel no obligation to take the verbal bludgening to heart. I don't allow anyone to make me feel guilty and then use that guilt for their own means anymore. The Holy Spirit convicts me of my own disobedience in such a way as no human being can. Holy Spirit filled preaching convicts and then points the Way to victory rather than rousing guilty feelings and then asking for more money, more time, etc. I don't think there is any end to what such persons will ask. The book of Jude deals with such religious leaders pretty soundly.

To all:

Yes, beware of abusers with their own 'kingdom building' agenda. ... but also beware that you do not castigate or dis-abuse the prophet and the preacher who declares GOD'S WORD without fear or favor, ... yet with grace and love toward others and the Truth.
It is up to us {by yielding to the Holy Spirit's leading) *to discern* between the two.

blessings & kind regards,
in YESHUA Sar Shalom Messiah.

Len,

I had to look up the words, 'castigate' and 'disabuse' and I don't think I have done either. My dictionary says that castigate means to chastize or critisize severely. I don't think I have done this to anyone but I refuse to follow someone in a direction that the Holy Spirit and the revealed Word of God convict me is harmful. I also won't remain silent if I think they are putting themselves in danger by leading others where they ought not to go. I will not make more of a person than they are. Of course, this only applies if I am in a position to speak to such a leader. The Lord decides that opportunity and I don't go looking for it. I am not on a crusade to rid the world of false prophets.

Disabuse, according to my dictionary, means to free from a falsehood or misconception. I'm not sure how this applies but if a brother or sister are caught up in sin, no matter their position or calling, I think it is our duty to try and open their eyes to the falsehood that they are following. Not to do so would be the very opposite of this word. It would be to allow them to be abused by lies and misunderstandings. I have tried to do so in regard to some brothers and sisters. Of course, I am also only human and prone to sin and may have disabused someone in error. I am not above correction if that correction is Godly for God truly knows all hearts in the situation and we are not even able to know our own heart completely.

I am also not sure that we understand the word prophet in the same way. As a Christian, I understand a prophet to be someone who tells forth the Word of God as well as foretelling prophecy. Whether someone is called a preacher, or pastor, or minister, or priest, when they take up the position of preaching the Word of God they are a prophet true or false. I differenciate this from Prophets during OT times. These men were chosen by God to be spoken through as the people did not have a personal relationship with God and could not commune with God directly. These men were not indwelled by the Holy Spirit but instead, the Holy Spirit would come upon them and use them as a mouthpiece. There were also many false prophets in those days who served to please men and not God. This has not changed as false prophets today also serve to please men and get monetary gain or power for themselves. However, I believe that the OT type Prophets were ended and replaced by Jesus Who did not speak only when the Holy Spirit came upon Him but was indeed, fathered by the Holy Spirit. He replaced the old method that God used to direct His people and became our eternal Prophet, Priest, and King. Through Him, we have continual communion with God on an individual basis. Through Him, we are reborn by the Spirit and the Holy Spirit lives in us, Fathering the new creature that we have become through faith in Jesus. Hebrews 1 tells us that God used to speak to us through Prophets and in various different ways but now He speaks to us through His Son. The Spiritual gift of prophecy still exists but there is no more future telling that needs to be foretold because it is already written. A prophet can receive spiritual insight through the exercising of this gift and clarify to others, not gifted with prophetic insight, what the Bible teaches is the outcome of the complete revelation of Jesus Christ. However, forth-telling of God's Word is the primary purpose of NT prophets. They may be in postitions of authority within the church or they may be among the laity.

This is my understanding by conviction of the Holy Spirit measured for assurance by the scriptures. I read nothing in the prophecies already written that teaches that God will again raise Prophets as in the OT. That doesn't mean that I'm not missing something. However, I think the biggest problem that has existed between me and some of my brothers and sisters is in how we define prophet and how we understand the function of prophet today. Perhaps, we all need to be disabused in order to find understanding.

Pam

Amos 3:7 -
"Surely the Sovereign Lord does nothing without revealing His plan to His servants the prophets."

Malachi 3:6 -
"I the Lord do not change..."

Timothy,

No, God does not change but He does work in different ways through different people.

Hebrews 1:1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these days He has spoken to us by his Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

This is still the age of Grace and those who are given the gift of prophecy speak according to the Holy Spirit that indwells them. They are born again believers as all who are in Christ are born again. They don't function in the same way as the OT Prophets.

In Matthew 24, Jesus tells us that during the end of this present age there will be many false prophets who rise up to draw people away after them saying that Jesus is in the desert and in various places. Jesus says not to believe them in Matthew 24:27. This also correlates to His warnings to the seven churches in Revelation. Though all but one church, the church of brotherly love, is in error and some of them highly wicked, Jesus does not tell us to depart from them but to hold on until He comes.

I have not found anything in scripture that teaches that Prophets which function in the same way as in OT times will emerge at the end of the age of Grace. I have been wrong before and if you can show me differently, I am open to it. I do believe as it states in the book of Joel that sons and daughters will prophecy but I believe this has been going on all through this end time period which began at Christ's resurrection. Any believer in Christ in whom the Holy Spirit dwells can be gifted to prophesy at the Lord's command.

I have recently learned that some denominations believe differently but I don't understand what they base their beliefs on. I am willing to try to see what you and others see but I need a scriptural explanantion because it is scripture along with the discernment of the Holy Spirit that enables me to test the spirits and not be led astray by those that don't come from God. All that God intends to do has already been revealed through the Prophets. Prophets today are gifted with spiritual insight into those writings that enable us to apply them to our lives as we live out the Book.

This is not where I meant this to go when I first commented on Trent's post. You don't have to be anyone special to be my brother in Christ. I come from a very sinful background and I understand the shame that can come with that. I tried to be someone other than I was and thought that hiding who I was before Christ to be wise but in later years, I have come to know that what I was and who I am now is the testimony of Christ Jesus in my life and that is the testimony I am to share. My perfection means nothing. It is the Mercy of God reaching down to me while I am so imperfect that is the glory of God in me. That is God's glory in all of us who are called out in Christ and chosen not for our wisdom but for our baseness. If God can have Mercy upon me then there is no reason for Him not to have Mercy upon anyone.

Pam

reminds me of ... THIS

Amen Trent great verse. It leaves NO room for argument.

Matthew 23:34
"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,

So then, if we being human, think we understand Scripture and then build our own personal theology from our own interpretations of that which is black and white and add thereto, yet find even one Scripture that contradicts or refutes our belief or stance then we must let our stance go and start all over again seeking the Lord for more perfect understanding. But to do this our pride must first be let go and we must be willing to say, "Lord I know nothing...teach me, oh Lord, for You alone know all things. Make me empty so I can receive."

2Ti 2:21 -
If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

John 3:27 -
John answered, "No one can have anything unless God gives it.

John 6:63 -
What gives life is God's Spirit; human power is of no use at all. The words I have spoken to you bring God's life-giving Spirit.

From Jesus in The Letters:

"Only the Lord may add to His own word, so you may come into a greater understanding, yea, an unveiling of the Word’s majesty, both brilliant and subtle." ~ Jesus

"He has no understanding of himself, nor does any man...it is the gift of God, ... Only the Word can give understanding of Itself, which I am." ~ Jesus

May the Lord Jesus grant you understanding, and give you peace and comfort, resting in the knowledge that He is the Lord, and there is none like Him. Amen.

I don't deny there are prophets but I don't believe they have the same function as before Jesus Christ. I could write volumes on it and it wouldn't matter because none of us change our minds unless God changes them.

I am sorry that I bit into this. My original comments had nothing to do with this subject. I really don't even want to think about any of this any more. I want to be friends and not enemies but I believe what I believe as do you. I have no bitterness or anger. I do have a lot of frustration around this subject. In any event, I simply can't know enough about a person online to dicern if they are a Prophet, Apostle, and one of the 144,000.

Again, I appologize and it won't happen again.

Pam

Timothy,

Context is important and in the verse Trent quoted, Jesus was speaking to Pharasees and religious leaders. The verse I quoted was spoken to the diciples in regards to signs of the end times.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to argue but when I voice what I believe, it seems to turn out that way. I can only believe what the Lord convicts me of. I have no real conviction regarding your calling. I keep waiting and in time, I know that God will reveal to me what I need to know.

So this has been on my mind for days. I mean this post and replies.

I am done if you will. It seems I am walking in waters I do not belong. I have 100% faith that if any one person is honestly searching for God they will find Him where He always has been. God of course has installed the wanting to "search".

Does not matter what style of preaching goes on. What there family or friends might say or anything else. We guard ourselves with the armor of the word. If the Bible does not say it then it is not so. Those parts we tend to argue about do not change and may well never but running after Him, seeking Him, wanting to please only Him....who or what could lead you away?

We are servants to Him and each other. You all are greater then I and I pray I will always see everyone like that no matter who they are. I wish myself to remain in service to you all and others not to do harm to anyone with what I may not understand, my personal opinions right or wrong or if I am in agreement or not.

I love you and you all are loved.

Mrs. Zeke,

I am certainly not greater than you but I am not always as humble as I should be. I am sorry. I am in over my head too and when I try to do what is right, it still turns out wrong. I try not to crusade but I do. Even though I know God does not need me to straighten things out, I keep putting my nose in. Forgive me.

Pam

Trent, Tim, and Len,

Through this whole mess that has been going on for the 1 1/2 years, I have not gotten angry. I've had my feelings hurt several times, been confused, frustrated, concerned, and disappointed but not angry. Len's side-swipe remark hit me with all of the aforementioned in one fell swoop and it made me angry. I'm still angry but I know that my anger won't do any good. I don't think I've really done any good here at all in a long time. I sure know that it hasn't been loving and it is not what Jesus is about. I don't know what I could have done differently right now but I do know that I have become like a clanging symbol, I don't like it, and I'm sorry. I don't know what the correct balance is here. I want to obey God and be faithful to Him and not lose the friendship I have had here and somehow, that has gotten to be a difficult thing to accomplish. I do know that whatever is going to happen tomorrow doesn't matter very much if God's people can't love one another today. Theology doesn't mean much either when what we need in not a what but a Who and He is Jesus. I am so sick of theology, I could puke! If there has been good to come out of all this then I need to be reminded of it. A reality check would be great right about now and I think Mrs. Zeke has started that reality check on the right note.

Pam

You or anyone else have done wrong there is no need to seek forgiveness.

I have walked where I should not. When I do that I am not being what God has lead me to be.

From a song called Romans
Just when I think I've got it, Its gone.
When I think I know the answer,
And I dare to raise my hand, Its wrong.

Stop stop stop, This foolish pride of mine
that dares to drag me far away from you.
When I try to do it my way
I always lose, I always lose, your point of view..



The fruit is what we judge and see , it either benefits the Kingdom or not. Different fruit, One Kingdom.

It is good I see you above me it is in this I practice submission and deny self.

I was not pointing in my last post to anyone but myself in the matter because God reminded me where I am to tread for Him and where I walk with my eyes away from him for matters of my own pride.
So I need forgiveness from all not the other way around.

Be loved all you are loved.

Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all.