Very good, Bud.
Jesus went to the cross voluntarily.
He said,"No man
takes my life from me". He "laid down"
His life for us. If
Pilate and Judas had not been in the mix,
someone else would have been.

Great post.

Chris

Bud,

I can't remember where I first heard the apprehend / comprehend dichotomy (but it might have been *gasp* Hank Hanagraff.) I think it was something like: "We can apprehend the trinity, but comprehension is not realistic."

I was just wondering where that came from. I mean is there a passage that says "You just can't understand this so don't bother." Really, provided that passage exists, it would seem to contradict the passage that you quoted from: [[[1 Corinthians 2:9-13 (cf. John 16:7-15)]]]

I'm not trying to argue, just wondering where you think that comes from in the Bible.

Also, when it comes to the subject of Judas, one verse always comes to memory: John 6:70 """Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!""""

Still ripening,
Trent

Trent,

Well, I know of Hank, but have never heard him or known him. I know some people the apprehend/comprehend jargon to duck questions or avoid admiting to errors, but I didn't mean to imply that attitude.

When I look at the apprehend/comprehend issue, it's along the line of how my flesh is always interfering and limiting my understanding. And even that day when the flesh is gone, when I go to be with Christ, He is still infinite I am still finite. Alas, I still won't be able to 'hit' the learning curve and understand all there is about Jesus -it's too much for me.

When Jesus uses the word devil to describe Judas, I don't think he's saying Judas is one of Satan's fallen comrades, but hhe as become a thoroughly corrupted person who has been 'sifted' by Satan. I've always wondered why Jesus told Peter to beware and not let Satan sift him (Luke 22:31). It almost sounded as if Peter could have wound up as a betrayer of Jesus at Judas' level.

I guess that for me in the foreknowledge arena, no events surprise the Lord, but just exactly how He knows this is just beyond me. My apprehension is I am extremely confident that He can do this because He is Who He is. But, outside of assigning Him to Mr. Peabody and the Way-Back Machine, I have almost no insight and an extremely low comprehension into the principles of how He does it.

When the Lord talks about His ways are not my ways (Isaiah 55:8), I get that to a much deeper level than foreknowlege.

Ripening along side of you,
Bud

Now that's interesting--I had never given it much thought, but you're right Bud. Judas died before Christ arose. So he didn't die in the "New Covenant", but rather, the 'Old Covenant". I had always wondered what happened to the people that died "in between" the death and resurrection of Christ. Until you pointed that out, I never had a concrete answer.

I agree that although I might not ever really totally understand the ins and outs of the trinity, I can understand what God has freely given me, via the Spirit. Not an overnight deal, for sure, but rather an ongoing progress. It still amazes me that He loves us all enough to be ever so patient with us all, as we stumble through our blunders in our attempts to sort things out. We may know in part and see through a glass darkly, but one day we'll know in full!
Blessings!
Lisa

Hi Bud,

This was a thought provoking post and it took me some time to consider the thoughts that you provoked in me.:0) I also went back and reread the account of Judas and then reread your post.

The thing that struck me the most in the Biblical account is that Judas was not just following Satan, the Bible says that Satan entered Judas. That is possession and I believe, that Judas is the only human being to be possessed by Satan himself. If there is another account of such, I am unaware of it. If Judas were possessed then his actions would not have been his but those of the opposition, Satan. I don't believe that Judas chose possession by Satan as no one chooses to be possessed. From my human perspective, I think this would effect how Judas' actions would be judged.

On the other hand, none of us are saved by our actions good or bad and none of us have the ability to truly know if another is saved. None of us know the final destiny of any other human being no matter what their actions.

I do however, believe that Judas was appointed by God to act in the way he acted. Just as we are not able to judge the final destiny of another, niether are we capable of judging God. I can barely understand, as a believer, how God is working both good and evil together for my own personal good. From my perspective, the bad things in my life just seem bad. My view of good and evil is not God's view of good and evil but just as He is working good and evil together for good in my life, I know He is also working good and evil together for the good of mankind. I also know that I could have as easily been appointed by God to serve God's left hand as Judas was appointed, for I am no less evil than he. I am very thankful and humbled that my appointment is at the right hand of God in Christ.

I hope I am not painting God as a puppeteer. If indeed we are but puppets, then we are very complex puppets that opperate by our own free will and not strings. We are also very beloved puppets being that God sacrificed His Son in order to redeem mankind.

Sometimes, I think we tend to view the church as the end all and not as a small part of God's overall plan for the human race. The work He is doing through the church does not end with our personal salvation, it is only the beginning of something much greater.

We are all peering through that dark glass and none of us can see very well and none of see exactly the same things. I'm very thankful that the outcome of it all depends upon God and not our limited peering into things that are beyond our understanding.

I think this was a run-on comment so I'll stop it here.:0)

Pam